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I'm Bob Cringely.
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Sixteen years ago,
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when I was doing my television series,
Triumph of the Nerds,
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I interviewed Steve Jobs.
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That was in 1995.
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Ten years earlier, Steve had left Apple,
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after a dispute that left marks
with John Sculley,
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the CEO he had brought into the company.
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At the time of the interview,
Steve ran NeXT,
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the company specializing in computers
which he created after leaving Apple.
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Little did we know that within 18 months,
he would sell NeXT to Apple,
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and six months later,
he would be the administrator of everything.
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Because of how things work,
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we only use part of the interview
in the series.
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And for years,
we thought the rest was lost,
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because the original recording will disappear,
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when it was sent
from London to the USA in the 90s.
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But, a few days ago,
Paul Sen, the series director,
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found a VHS tape
of this interview, in his garage.
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There are very few interviews on television
with Steve Jobs,
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and good ones, almost none.
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They rarely show charisma, frankness
and vision, as this interview shows.
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So, to honor an incredible man,
here is the interview in its entirety.
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Most have never been seen.
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How did it start
with personal computers?
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Well...
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I came across my first computer
at 10 or 11 years old.
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And it's hard to remember that time.
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Now, I'm an old fossil.
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In other words, it's been about 30 years
I was 10 or 11 years old.
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And no one had seen a computer.
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I only saw them in movies
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and there were big boxes that hummed...
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For some reason,
considered tape drives
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the symbol of what a computer was,
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or, somehow, the lights flashing.
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No one had ever seen one.
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They were mysterious and powerful things,
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that were doing something in the background.
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So seeing one and being able to use one
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it was a great privilege.
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And I joined NASA,
which has the Ames Research Center here.
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I was able to use a time-sharing terminal.
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I didn't get to see the computer,
but I saw a time-sharing terminal.
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It's hard to remember how primitive it was.
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There were no computers
with a graphic display.
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It was literally a printer.
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It was a teleprinter with a keyboard.
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So, we typed the orders,
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We waited a little, and that did...
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And it told us something.
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Even so, it was something remarkable,
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especially for a 10 year old kid,
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be possible to write a program
in BASIC or FORTRAN.
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In fact, the machine took your idea,
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executed it and gave it back to you
some results.
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If they were the ones you had predicted,
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your program worked.
It was a very exciting experience.
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So, I was
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quite captivated by the computer.
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For me,
the computer was still mysterious,
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was on the other side of a cable,
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and I still hadn't seen
the real computer.
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Afterwards, they gave me guided tours
to computers, where I saw the inside.
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And I was part of a group
at Hewlett-Packard.
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At 12, I called Bill Hewlett,
who lived at Hewlett-Packard at the time.
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Which makes me old-fashioned again,
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but all the numbers were listed.
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I just had to look in the phone book
by your name.
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He answered the phone
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and I said, "Hi, my name is Steve Jobs.
You don't know me, but I'm 12 years old,
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"I'm creating a frequency meter
and I need some spare parts."
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And he spoke to me for about 20 minutes.
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I will never forget.
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And he gave me the pieces.
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Plus, he gave me a summer job,
at Hewlett-Packard.
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And I was 12 years old at the time.
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This had a notable influence on me.
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Hewlett-Packard was the only company
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that I had seen at that age,
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what formed my vision
of what a company was
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and how well
treated their employees.
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There was no talk of cholesterol at that time.
Therefore,
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used to give a large amount
of donuts and coffee at 10:00 am.
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Everyone took a break
for coffee and donuts.
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Through little things like this,
it became clear
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that the company recognized
the true value of your employees.
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Anyway,
one thing led to another at Hewlett-Packard
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and I started to go
to its laboratories in Palo Alto,
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on Tuesday nights,
with a small group
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to meet researchers and so on.
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And I saw the first desktop computer
ever done,
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the Hewlett-Packard 9100.
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It was almost the size
of a suitcase,
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it had a small screen
cathode ray tube
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and was completely autonomous.
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There was no cable
to hide behind a curtain.
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And I fell in love with him.
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And we could program it in BASIC and APL.
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I'd get a ride to Hewlett-Packard
and stayed for hours
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Around that machine,
writing programs for it.
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That was the beginning.
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And I met Steve Wozniak
around that time, too.
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Maybe a little earlier,
when I was around 14 or 15 years old.
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And we hit it off immediately.
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It was the first one I met
who knew more about electronics than me.
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And I was...
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I liked him a lot.
He was about five years older than me.
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He had gone to university,
but got kicked out for playing pranks,
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and lived with his parents,
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attended De Anza,
the local community university.
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We became fast friends
and we started doing projects together.
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We read about...
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We read a story in Esquire magazine
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about a guy called Captain Crunch,
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which supposedly made free calls.
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You've heard of this, of course.
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And we were captivated again.
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How was this possible?
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And we thought it must be a lie.
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We started searching in libraries,
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Looking for the secret tones
that would allow us to do this.
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And actually, one night,
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we were in the center
of the Stanford Linear Accelerator,
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and in the confines of the technical library,
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even on the last shelf,
on the bottom corner shelf,
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we found a specialized magazine
from ATandT who explained everything.
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It's another moment I won't forget.
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When we saw the magazine, we thought:
"My God! It's all true."
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So, we started to build a device
that made these tones.
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And it worked like this.
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When we make a call
From long distance, we used to hear...
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Right? In the background?
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There were tones that sounded
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like the keys on your phone,
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but you didn't hit them
because the frequency is different.
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After all, this was the signal that the computer
from one phone to another,
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controlling computers on the network.
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ATandT made a fatal error when designing
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the original telephone network,
the digital telephone network,
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which was however the transmission of signals
between computers
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in the same band as our voice,
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i.e.
If we could make these signs,
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we could insert them into the device.
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And literally the entire telephone network
from ATandT International
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I would think we were an ATandT computer.
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After three weeks, we finally built
a device that worked.
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And I remember that first call
we did was to Los Angeles,
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to a relative of Woz in Pasadena.
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We got the number wrong
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and we woke up a guy in the middle of the night.
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We shouted at him something like:
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"Don't you understand
Did we make this call for free?"
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The guy didn't like it very much.
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But it was miraculous.
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We built some boxes
to make calls for free,
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with a note at the bottom.
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Our motto was:
"He has the whole world in his hands."
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And they worked.
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We built the best device in the world.
Everything digital. No adjustments.
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We could go to a phone booth,
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make a long distance call
to White Plains,
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then, a satellite route to Europe,
then to Turkey,
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and return, by cable, to Atlanta.
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We could go around the world.
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We could do it 5 or 6 times,
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because we learned all the codes
to enter the satellites.
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We could call the booth outside,
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scream into the phone,
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and, after a minute, exit on the other phone.
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It was prodigious.
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We can ask:
"What's so interesting?"
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The interesting thing is that we were young.
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And we learn
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that we could build something, ourselves,
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who controlled global infrastructures
of billions of dollars.
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This is what we learned,
that the two of us...
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We didn't know much.
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We could build something small
who could control something gigantic.
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And that was an incredible lesson.
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I don't think there would ever have been
an Apple computer
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if there hadn't been
the telephone boxes.
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- Woz said they called the pope?
- Yes, we called the pope.
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He posed as Henry Kissinger.
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We got the Vatican number
and we called the pope.
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They started waking people up
higher and higher in the hierarchy.
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I don't know, cardinals and such.
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When finally
they sent someone to wake up the pope,
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we started laughing
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and they realized
that we were not Henry Kissinger.
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That's why we ended up not talking
with the pope, but it was a lot of fun.
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Yes...
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What instigated the box jumping
telephones for personal computers?
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Well...
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The need. In the sense of there being
time-sharing computers available
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and a time-sharing company
in Mountain View,
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where we could spend time.
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But we needed a terminal,
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as we didn't have money,
we designed and built one.
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And it was the first thing we did.
We built a terminal.
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Therefore, the Apple I
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was an extension of this terminal,
com um microprocessador no back-end.
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It was the combination
of two different projects.
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First, we build the terminal,
then we built the Apple I.
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And we built it for ourselves,
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because we didn't have money
to buy anything.
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We look for parts in the trash
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and we built everything by hand.
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It took us 40 to 80 hours to build one,
but they were always breaking,
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because they had very small cables.
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And we discovered that many of our
friends also wanted to build them.
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And although they may search
parts in the trash too,
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they didn't have the knowledge
to build them,
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the same
that we had acquired when building them.
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We ended up helping them
to build your own,
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which occupied us all the time.
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And we thought that if we could do
a printed circuit board,
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which is a bit of fiberglass
with copper on both sides,
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which is engraved to form the cables,
to build a computer...
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It was possible to build an Apple I
in a few hours instead of 40.
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If we had a sign,
we could sell it to our friends
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for the price it cost us to make it
and get our money back.
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Everyone would be happy
and we would get our lives back.
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And that's what we did.
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I sold my Volkswagen Kombi
and Steve sold his calculator,
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and we earn money to pay a friend
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for him to make the illustrations, so
making the printed circuit board.
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We made some signs
and we sold some to our friends.
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And I tried to sell the rest,
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for us to recover
the van and the calculator.
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I walked into the first computer store
of the world,
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the Mountain View Byte Shop,
on El Camino.
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It became a bookstore for adults,
a few years later.
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But back then, it was the Byte Shop.
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And the person who administered it,
I think his name was Paul Terrell,
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said, "I'll take 50 of those."
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And I said, "Great."
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He said:
"But I want them fully assembled."
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We never thought about that.
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We went back and forth with this and thought:
"Why not try that?"
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So I spent the next few days
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on the phone,
with electronic parts distributors.
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We didn't know what we were doing.
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And we said, "We need these parts."
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We thought about buying 100 sets,
build 50,
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00:12:31,769 --> 00:12:35,648
sell them to Byte Shop
for twice as much as it cost us to build them,
247
00:12:35,731 --> 00:12:37,024
thus paying the 100.
248
00:12:37,107 --> 00:12:40,861
And we would still have 50,
which we would profit from when we sold them.
249
00:12:42,947 --> 00:12:46,409
We convince distributors to accept
a 30-day credit for parts.
250
00:12:46,492 --> 00:12:48,994
We didn't know what that was.
"30 days? Of course." "Sign."
251
00:12:49,078 --> 00:12:51,288
So, we had 30 days to pay them.
252
00:12:51,956 --> 00:12:55,376
We buy the parts,
we build the products,
253
00:12:55,460 --> 00:12:59,171
we sold 50 � Byte Shop in Palo Alto
254
00:12:59,254 --> 00:13:01,048
and we were paid in 29 days.
255
00:13:01,131 --> 00:13:03,008
We pay distributors in 30 days
256
00:13:03,092 --> 00:13:04,552
and we created a business.
257
00:13:04,635 --> 00:13:07,555
But we had the classic Marxist crisis
profit realization,
258
00:13:07,638 --> 00:13:09,349
our profit was not money,
259
00:13:09,432 --> 00:13:11,726
but 50 computers in one corner.
260
00:13:11,809 --> 00:13:15,730
Suddenly we had to think:
"How to realize our profit?"
261
00:13:15,813 --> 00:13:17,898
And we started thinking about distribution:
262
00:13:17,982 --> 00:13:19,316
"Are there more computer stores?"
263
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,736
We started calling other stores
264
00:13:21,819 --> 00:13:26,657
all over the country and it was like this
that we gradually entered the business.
265
00:13:26,991 --> 00:13:29,034
The key third person
in the creation of Apple
266
00:13:29,118 --> 00:13:31,704
he was the former Intel executive,
Mike Markkula.
267
00:13:31,787 --> 00:13:34,123
I asked Steve
how did he get into the project.
268
00:13:34,206 --> 00:13:36,667
We were designing the Apple II
269
00:13:36,751 --> 00:13:41,506
and we had much greater ambitions
for him.
270
00:13:41,589 --> 00:13:45,259
Woz wanted to add color graphics.
271
00:13:45,342 --> 00:13:48,846
I wanted...
272
00:13:49,889 --> 00:13:54,810
I knew there were many people
who had hardware as a hobby
273
00:13:54,894 --> 00:13:58,063
who could build their computers
or grab our sign,
274
00:13:58,147 --> 00:14:00,107
join the transformers,
the power source,
275
00:14:00,190 --> 00:14:02,443
the box, the keyboard, etc.
276
00:14:02,527 --> 00:14:03,778
And arrange the rest...
277
00:14:03,861 --> 00:14:08,282
For each of these, there were a thousand people
who couldn't do it,
278
00:14:08,366 --> 00:14:10,701
but they wanted to change the programming.
279
00:14:10,785 --> 00:14:12,453
People for whom software was a hobby.
280
00:14:12,537 --> 00:14:16,791
Just like I was when I was 10,
when I discovered that computer.
281
00:14:16,874 --> 00:14:18,584
My dream for the Apple II
282
00:14:18,668 --> 00:14:22,463
went to sell
the first true complete computer.
283
00:14:22,547 --> 00:14:23,548
A computer
full staff,
284
00:14:23,631 --> 00:14:26,050
without us needing
knowledge of hardware.
285
00:14:26,133 --> 00:14:30,638
By combining both dreams,
we design the product.
286
00:14:30,721 --> 00:14:34,559
I discovered a designer
and we design the packaging and everything,
287
00:14:34,642 --> 00:14:38,062
we wanted it to be plastic.
We already had everything ready to start.
288
00:14:38,145 --> 00:14:41,106
But we needed money
to improve the box and so on.
289
00:14:41,190 --> 00:14:43,233
We needed a few hundred
of thousands of dollars.
290
00:14:43,317 --> 00:14:44,652
It was way beyond our means,
291
00:14:44,735 --> 00:14:47,405
therefore,
I went looking for venture capital.
292
00:14:47,488 --> 00:14:51,951
And I found a venture capitalist,
called Don Valentine,
293
00:14:52,034 --> 00:14:53,578
who came to the garage.
294
00:14:53,661 --> 00:14:56,664
He later said
that I looked like a renegade of the human race.
295
00:14:56,747 --> 00:14:58,458
It was his famous quote.
296
00:14:58,541 --> 00:15:00,209
He said he didn't want to invest in us,
297
00:15:00,292 --> 00:15:02,377
but he recommended some people to us
298
00:15:02,462 --> 00:15:04,171
and one of them was Mike Markkula.
299
00:15:04,254 --> 00:15:06,674
I called Mike and he came over.
300
00:15:06,757 --> 00:15:10,010
He had retired from Intel,
at 30 or 31 years old.
301
00:15:10,094 --> 00:15:13,055
He had been a product manager there,
left with a shares
302
00:15:13,138 --> 00:15:15,349
and made a million dollars from them.
303
00:15:15,433 --> 00:15:17,477
Which, at the time, was a lot of money.
304
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,355
He had invested
in oil and gas business,
305
00:15:21,439 --> 00:15:23,733
but now he was at home, doing nothing.
306
00:15:23,816 --> 00:15:27,069
I think he was anxious
for doing something again
307
00:15:27,152 --> 00:15:29,404
and we got along very well right away.
308
00:15:30,155 --> 00:15:34,744
And Mike said:
"Okay, I'll invest in a few weeks."
309
00:15:34,869 --> 00:15:38,122
And I said, "No. We don't want
your money. We want you."
310
00:15:39,499 --> 00:15:44,962
We convinced Mike
to enter as an equal member.
311
00:15:45,588 --> 00:15:49,174
And Mike came in with money,
and with himself,
312
00:15:49,258 --> 00:15:50,635
and the three of us launched.
313
00:15:50,718 --> 00:15:53,846
We grabbed the design that was
virtually made with the Apple II,
314
00:15:53,971 --> 00:15:57,475
we improve it and advertise it
315
00:15:58,225 --> 00:16:00,770
a few months later,
at the West Coast Computer Fair.
316
00:16:00,853 --> 00:16:02,938
- How did it go?
- It was great.
317
00:16:03,981 --> 00:16:05,483
We get the best.
318
00:16:05,733 --> 00:16:09,153
The West Coast Computer Fair
I was little at the time,
319
00:16:09,236 --> 00:16:10,988
but for us, it was huge.
320
00:16:12,364 --> 00:16:15,409
We set up a fantastic stand there.
321
00:16:15,493 --> 00:16:19,079
We had a television
who designed the Apple II,
322
00:16:19,163 --> 00:16:21,081
showing the graphs,
which today seem simple,
323
00:16:21,165 --> 00:16:25,210
but, at the time, they were, by far,
the best on a personal computer.
324
00:16:25,294 --> 00:16:27,505
And I think...
325
00:16:27,588 --> 00:16:30,215
My memory is that we killed it.
326
00:16:30,299 --> 00:16:33,844
Many retailers and distributors
started to line up
327
00:16:33,928 --> 00:16:35,846
and we were launched.
328
00:16:37,264 --> 00:16:38,849
How old were you?
329
00:16:39,349 --> 00:16:40,560
Twenty-one.
330
00:16:40,643 --> 00:16:41,644
- Twenty-one?
- Yes.
331
00:16:41,727 --> 00:16:43,270
At 21, it's a huge success.
332
00:16:43,353 --> 00:16:47,567
It did so, purely following
your instincts.
333
00:16:47,733 --> 00:16:49,985
There is no training in this.
334
00:16:50,069 --> 00:16:52,697
How do you learn to manage a company?
335
00:16:59,494 --> 00:17:02,790
Throughout my years working,
336
00:17:02,873 --> 00:17:07,837
I realized that I always asked
how things were done.
337
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,007
And the normal answers are:
"It's the way it's done."
338
00:17:12,592 --> 00:17:15,094
Nobody knows why they do what they do.
339
00:17:15,177 --> 00:17:17,888
No one thinks very deeply
in business.
340
00:17:17,972 --> 00:17:20,432
That's what I discovered.
I'll give an example.
341
00:17:23,352 --> 00:17:25,605
When building our Apple I
in the garage,
342
00:17:25,688 --> 00:17:27,898
we knew exactly how much they cost.
343
00:17:28,691 --> 00:17:32,737
In the days of the Apple II,
when we went to a factory,
344
00:17:34,572 --> 00:17:37,992
the accounting
had a notion of standard cost,
345
00:17:38,075 --> 00:17:40,786
where we decide the standard cost
346
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:43,998
and at the end of the quarter,
we adjusted it with a variation.
347
00:17:44,081 --> 00:17:46,667
I just asked, "Why do we do this?"
348
00:17:46,751 --> 00:17:48,502
And the answer was: "That's how it's done."
349
00:17:48,586 --> 00:17:50,671
After six months of thinking about it,
350
00:17:50,755 --> 00:17:54,091
I realized that we do this because
351
00:17:54,174 --> 00:17:57,469
We don't control things enough
to find out how much it costs,
352
00:17:57,552 --> 00:18:00,848
So, we make an estimate
and we correct it at the end of the quarter.
353
00:18:00,931 --> 00:18:02,516
And we don't know how much it costs, because
354
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,852
information systems
are not good enough.
355
00:18:07,062 --> 00:18:09,273
But no one said it that way.
356
00:18:09,481 --> 00:18:12,610
So later, when we conceive
the Macintosh automated factory,
357
00:18:12,693 --> 00:18:16,071
we managed to free ourselves
of many of these antiquated concepts
358
00:18:16,155 --> 00:18:19,408
and know exactly how much something costs,
to the second.
359
00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:26,331
In business, many things are folklore,
as I like to call them.
360
00:18:26,791 --> 00:18:30,335
They are made because that's how it was done
yesterday and the day before yesterday.
361
00:18:30,460 --> 00:18:34,381
That is, if we are willing
asking lots of questions,
362
00:18:34,464 --> 00:18:36,050
thinking about things and working hard,
363
00:18:36,133 --> 00:18:40,012
we learned to negotiate very quickly.
It's not the hardest thing in the world.
364
00:18:40,095 --> 00:18:43,182
- It's not space science.
- It's not space science, no.
365
00:18:43,265 --> 00:18:48,228
When, in the beginning, you got in touch
with computers and invented them,
366
00:18:48,312 --> 00:18:52,692
even before that, when working
on the HP 9100, he talked about programming.
367
00:18:52,775 --> 00:18:53,901
What type of programming?
368
00:18:53,984 --> 00:18:55,986
What did people do with it?
369
00:19:01,491 --> 00:19:02,993
What we did was...
370
00:19:05,955 --> 00:19:07,581
Well, I'll give you a simple example.
371
00:19:07,665 --> 00:19:09,624
When designing our telephone box,
372
00:19:09,709 --> 00:19:13,295
We created several custom programs
to help us conceive it
373
00:19:14,379 --> 00:19:17,424
and to do the hard work for us,
374
00:19:17,507 --> 00:19:22,429
in terms of calculating frequencies
principals with subdividers to find
375
00:19:22,512 --> 00:19:24,890
others and so on.
We use the computer a lot.
376
00:19:24,974 --> 00:19:28,143
And to calculate the errors
that we would obtain with the frequencies
377
00:19:28,227 --> 00:19:29,729
and how many we could tolerate.
378
00:19:29,812 --> 00:19:31,105
So we use them in our work.
379
00:19:31,188 --> 00:19:33,315
But most importantly
380
00:19:33,398 --> 00:19:35,985
was that we weren't using them
for something practical.
381
00:19:36,068 --> 00:19:39,029
We were using them
382
00:19:41,031 --> 00:19:44,952
as a mirror of our rational process,
383
00:19:45,035 --> 00:19:47,454
to learn to think.
384
00:19:47,537 --> 00:19:49,498
I think it was the most valuable thing, learning...
385
00:19:49,581 --> 00:19:50,791
Everyone in this country
386
00:19:50,875 --> 00:19:54,628
should learn to program a computer
and a computer language,
387
00:19:54,712 --> 00:19:58,257
because it teaches us to think.
It's like going to law school.
388
00:19:58,340 --> 00:20:00,134
I don't think anyone should be a lawyer,
389
00:20:00,217 --> 00:20:01,969
but law school can be useful,
390
00:20:02,052 --> 00:20:04,346
because it helps us think
in a certain way.
391
00:20:04,429 --> 00:20:06,056
Just like computer programming
392
00:20:06,140 --> 00:20:08,809
teach us,
in a slightly different way, to think about.
393
00:20:08,893 --> 00:20:12,772
I see the science of computer science
as a liberal art.
394
00:20:13,898 --> 00:20:15,690
Everyone should learn.
395
00:20:15,775 --> 00:20:17,902
Taking a year of our lives...
396
00:20:17,985 --> 00:20:22,197
One of the courses that have
- learn to program.
397
00:20:22,281 --> 00:20:23,532
Yes, but I learned APL,
398
00:20:23,615 --> 00:20:28,078
which is obviously part of the reason
why my life is not normal.
399
00:20:29,371 --> 00:20:32,332
When looking back,
consider it an enriching experience
400
00:20:32,416 --> 00:20:35,544
who taught him to think
in a different way, or not?
401
00:20:35,627 --> 00:20:37,462
- Not especially.
- Right.
402
00:20:37,546 --> 00:20:40,590
Maybe other languages do,
but I started with APL.
403
00:20:42,467 --> 00:20:47,472
Therefore, obviously
that the Apple II was a tremendous success.
404
00:20:47,556 --> 00:20:49,433
- Yes.
- Incredibly.
405
00:20:49,516 --> 00:20:52,644
The company grew from nothing,
became public
406
00:20:52,727 --> 00:20:54,604
and you really got rich.
407
00:20:54,688 --> 00:20:56,899
How is it to get rich?
408
00:20:56,982 --> 00:20:59,276
It's very interesting. I was worth
409
00:21:01,486 --> 00:21:05,324
a little over a million dollars
when I was 23 years old,
410
00:21:05,407 --> 00:21:10,579
over $10 million by 24
and more than US$100 million at US$25.
411
00:21:14,291 --> 00:21:16,794
And it wasn't that important,
412
00:21:17,795 --> 00:21:19,964
because I never did it for money.
413
00:21:24,885 --> 00:21:28,597
I think money is wonderful,
because it allows us to do things.
414
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,557
This allows us to invest in ideas
415
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,310
who don't have a quick
return on investment and such.
416
00:21:34,769 --> 00:21:38,273
But especially back then
of my life, it wasn't the most important thing.
417
00:21:38,357 --> 00:21:42,402
The most important thing was the company,
the people, the products we create,
418
00:21:42,486 --> 00:21:45,405
the things we would make it possible to do
with these products,
419
00:21:45,489 --> 00:21:47,741
So I didn't think much about it.
420
00:21:47,825 --> 00:21:49,784
I never sold any shares.
421
00:21:50,995 --> 00:21:55,499
I have always believed that the company
would be very successful in the long run.
422
00:21:55,665 --> 00:21:57,835
Crucial for development
personal computer
423
00:21:57,918 --> 00:22:02,131
it was the pioneering work done at the Center
Xerox Palo Alto Research,
424
00:22:02,214 --> 00:22:06,010
that Steve visited
for the first time in 1979.
425
00:22:06,218 --> 00:22:09,304
There were three or four people
to bother me
426
00:22:09,388 --> 00:22:12,474
to go to Xerox PARC
see what they were doing.
427
00:22:12,557 --> 00:22:15,519
And finally, I did. I went there.
428
00:22:17,229 --> 00:22:20,440
They were very friendly,
they showed me what they were working on
429
00:22:20,524 --> 00:22:23,568
and they actually showed me three things.
430
00:22:24,528 --> 00:22:29,491
But I was so dazzled by the first one,
I didn't even see the other two.
431
00:22:31,576 --> 00:22:34,871
One of the things they showed me
was object-oriented programming.
432
00:22:34,955 --> 00:22:37,749
They showed me this, but I didn't even see it.
433
00:22:37,832 --> 00:22:40,460
They also showed me
a networked computer system.
434
00:22:40,544 --> 00:22:44,006
They had more than 100 Alto computers,
network, using emails,
435
00:22:44,089 --> 00:22:45,090
etcetera.
436
00:22:45,174 --> 00:22:47,217
I didn't even see that.
437
00:22:47,301 --> 00:22:50,429
I was so dazzled by the first thing
that they showed me,
438
00:22:50,512 --> 00:22:52,597
which was the graphical interface.
439
00:22:52,681 --> 00:22:55,184
I thought it was the best thing
that I had already seen.
440
00:22:55,267 --> 00:22:59,813
Remember that it had many flaws.
What we saw was not complete.
441
00:22:59,896 --> 00:23:02,649
There were many things wrong,
but we didn't know that at the time.
442
00:23:02,732 --> 00:23:03,733
But even so...
443
00:23:03,817 --> 00:23:07,404
The embryo of the idea was there,
and they had done it very well.
444
00:23:09,031 --> 00:23:13,160
It didn't take me 10 minutes
445
00:23:13,243 --> 00:23:16,621
to realize that all computers
They would work like that one day.
446
00:23:16,705 --> 00:23:17,706
It was obvious.
447
00:23:17,789 --> 00:23:19,749
We could discuss how long it would take
448
00:23:19,833 --> 00:23:21,460
or about the winners and losers,
449
00:23:21,543 --> 00:23:23,545
but we couldn't argue
its inevitability.
450
00:23:23,628 --> 00:23:24,671
It was so obvious.
451
00:23:24,754 --> 00:23:26,923
They would have felt the same
if they had been there.
452
00:23:27,007 --> 00:23:30,260
Those are the exact words
that Paul Allen used.
453
00:23:30,344 --> 00:23:32,012
- Yes.
- It's really interesting.
454
00:23:32,096 --> 00:23:33,973
Yes, it was obvious.
455
00:23:35,849 --> 00:23:37,351
But there were two visits.
456
00:23:37,434 --> 00:23:39,561
When he returned, he brought people with him.
457
00:23:39,644 --> 00:23:40,645
Yes.
458
00:23:40,729 --> 00:23:44,524
What happened this time?
They made him wait a while.
459
00:23:44,608 --> 00:23:45,650
No.
460
00:23:45,734 --> 00:23:48,903
- No? Adele Goldberg says the opposite.
- What do you mean?
461
00:23:48,988 --> 00:23:50,489
Well, she did the demo...
462
00:23:50,572 --> 00:23:51,698
- Right.
- ...when the group returned.
463
00:23:51,781 --> 00:23:56,996
She said she protested against doing it
for three hours,
464
00:23:57,954 --> 00:24:01,416
and who took him to other places to see
other things, while protesting.
465
00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:03,877
They were reluctant
to show us the demo?
466
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:04,961
She was.
467
00:24:05,045 --> 00:24:06,630
- I have no idea.
- Right.
468
00:24:06,713 --> 00:24:08,632
I don't remember that.
I thought it was something else.
469
00:24:08,715 --> 00:24:10,425
- They were very skilled.
- Yes.
470
00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:12,886
- But they showed us.
- Yes.
471
00:24:12,969 --> 00:24:14,388
That's why...
472
00:24:14,471 --> 00:24:15,597
And still good,
473
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,475
because the technology at Xerox is dead.
474
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:22,396
- What?
- No, I was just...
475
00:24:22,479 --> 00:24:23,522
- Why?
- Yes, why?
476
00:24:23,605 --> 00:24:25,524
I thought about this a lot, actually.
477
00:24:25,649 --> 00:24:28,527
And I learned more about it,
later, with John Sculley.
478
00:24:28,610 --> 00:24:30,612
I think I understand quite well now.
479
00:24:30,695 --> 00:24:34,283
What happened,
just like with John Sculley...
480
00:24:35,367 --> 00:24:36,910
John came from PepsiCo,
481
00:24:36,993 --> 00:24:40,705
and they, at most,
They changed their products every 10 years.
482
00:24:40,789 --> 00:24:43,875
For them, a new product
it was a bottle with a new size.
483
00:24:43,958 --> 00:24:46,461
So, if it were
the person responsible for the products,
484
00:24:46,545 --> 00:24:49,256
I couldn't change the company's direction much.
485
00:24:49,339 --> 00:24:52,967
What influences PepsiCo's success?
Sales and marketing people.
486
00:24:53,052 --> 00:24:54,761
So, they were the ones who were promoted,
487
00:24:54,844 --> 00:24:57,264
and, consequently,
who ran the company.
488
00:24:57,847 --> 00:25:01,310
For PepsiCo, this could work.
489
00:25:01,393 --> 00:25:04,563
But it turns out the same thing can happen
490
00:25:04,646 --> 00:25:08,067
in technology companies
who have monopolies.
491
00:25:08,150 --> 00:25:10,527
Like IBM and Xerox.
492
00:25:10,652 --> 00:25:14,739
If we worked in the product area,
at IBM or Xerox...
493
00:25:14,864 --> 00:25:18,077
We created a printer
or a better computer. E ent�o?
494
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,706
When you have market monopoly,
the company is no longer successful because of it.
495
00:25:23,082 --> 00:25:25,459
The people who can bring
more success for the company
496
00:25:25,542 --> 00:25:29,713
are sales and marketing.
And they are the ones who end up managing them.
497
00:25:29,838 --> 00:25:33,883
And people from products are turned away
decision-making forums.
498
00:25:34,926 --> 00:25:39,473
And companies forget
of what it means to make great products.
499
00:25:40,099 --> 00:25:44,811
The sensitivity and genius of the products
500
00:25:44,894 --> 00:25:47,856
that led them to this monopolistic position
501
00:25:47,939 --> 00:25:51,318
are destroyed
by the people who manage companies
502
00:25:51,401 --> 00:25:55,739
and who have no idea of the difference
between a good and a bad product.
503
00:25:55,822 --> 00:25:57,949
Don't have any idea
of the necessary work
504
00:25:58,032 --> 00:26:01,495
to grab a good idea
and turn it into a good product.
505
00:26:01,578 --> 00:26:04,123
And they usually don't feel
506
00:26:04,248 --> 00:26:07,083
any desire to help customers.
507
00:26:07,209 --> 00:26:08,585
That's what happened at Xerox.
508
00:26:08,710 --> 00:26:12,381
At Xerox PARC they called people
who ran Xerox, "toner heads".
509
00:26:12,589 --> 00:26:15,049
Dye heads came to Xerox PARC
510
00:26:15,134 --> 00:26:17,261
and they had no idea what they were seeing.
511
00:26:17,386 --> 00:26:19,429
And for the viewers,
What is a thinner?
512
00:26:19,513 --> 00:26:22,182
A toner is what you put
on a printer.
513
00:26:22,266 --> 00:26:25,519
The toner we put together
to an industrial printer.
514
00:26:25,602 --> 00:26:27,521
- The black scene.
- Yes, the black scene.
515
00:26:27,604 --> 00:26:29,022
They were nothing more than printer heads
516
00:26:29,105 --> 00:26:32,859
who didn't understand computers
nor what they were capable of.
517
00:26:32,942 --> 00:26:38,448
They ended up being defeated by
biggest victory for the IT industry.
518
00:26:39,283 --> 00:26:42,411
Xerox could own
of the entire computer industry today.
519
00:26:43,537 --> 00:26:45,705
It could have grown 10 times more.
520
00:26:45,789 --> 00:26:47,416
It could have been IBM.
521
00:26:47,499 --> 00:26:50,544
It could have been IBM
or Microsoft from the 90s.
522
00:26:50,627 --> 00:26:51,711
That's why...
523
00:26:51,795 --> 00:26:54,464
But that's the past. It doesn't matter anymore.
524
00:26:54,548 --> 00:26:57,384
Of course. You mentioned IBM.
525
00:26:57,467 --> 00:27:02,389
When IBM entered the market, this
Was it scary for you and Apple?
526
00:27:02,514 --> 00:27:03,890
Of course.
527
00:27:03,973 --> 00:27:07,101
We had Apple, a company
of a billion dollars.
528
00:27:07,186 --> 00:27:11,523
And IBM, at the time a company
of 30-odd billion dollars,
529
00:27:11,606 --> 00:27:14,568
entering the market.
Of course it was very scary.
530
00:27:14,651 --> 00:27:16,861
But we made a big mistake.
531
00:27:16,945 --> 00:27:19,739
IBM's first product was horrible.
Even very bad.
532
00:27:19,823 --> 00:27:24,661
And we make the mistake of not realizing
that there were many other people
533
00:27:24,744 --> 00:27:28,207
with strong personal interests
to help IBM improve it.
534
00:27:28,290 --> 00:27:31,710
So, if it had depended solely on IBM,
had gone on air.
535
00:27:31,793 --> 00:27:35,797
But IBM was brilliant in its approach,
536
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,759
that is, in having many other people
with personal interests in your success.
537
00:27:39,843 --> 00:27:41,928
And that's what ended up saving them.
538
00:27:42,011 --> 00:27:45,724
So he came back from visiting Xerox PARC
with a vision.
539
00:27:45,807 --> 00:27:47,851
How did you implement the vision?
540
00:27:48,602 --> 00:27:54,566
Well I gathered our best employees
and I made them work on it.
541
00:27:54,649 --> 00:27:59,195
The problem was that we had hired
a lot of people from Hewlett-Packard.
542
00:28:02,657 --> 00:28:05,744
Who couldn't understand the idea.
543
00:28:05,827 --> 00:28:09,581
I remember having dramatic arguments
with some of these people,
544
00:28:09,664 --> 00:28:12,292
they thought the coolest thing
in the user interface
545
00:28:12,376 --> 00:28:16,087
it was the soft keys
at the bottom of the screen.
546
00:28:16,170 --> 00:28:18,590
They had no idea
of fonts with proportional spacing
547
00:28:18,673 --> 00:28:19,716
nor rats.
548
00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:21,635
In fact, I remember arguing with them,
549
00:28:21,718 --> 00:28:25,347
of having people shouting at me
that it would take us five years to create a mouse
550
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:27,224
and that it would cost us 300 dollars.
551
00:28:28,225 --> 00:28:29,268
And finally, I got tired.
552
00:28:29,351 --> 00:28:32,312
I went out and discovered David Kelley Design.
553
00:28:32,396 --> 00:28:34,314
And I asked him to draw a mouse for me.
554
00:28:34,398 --> 00:28:35,482
In 90 days, we had a mouse,
555
00:28:35,565 --> 00:28:39,653
that we could build with 15 dollars
and that was incredibly good.
556
00:28:39,736 --> 00:28:43,407
In a way, I discovered
557
00:28:45,492 --> 00:28:50,997
that Apple did not have the caliber of people
that was necessary to take advantage of the idea
558
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:52,499
in several ways.
559
00:28:52,582 --> 00:28:54,167
There was a nucleus that had a clue,
560
00:28:54,251 --> 00:28:59,714
but there was a larger team, most of whom
had come from Hewlett-Packard,
561
00:29:00,257 --> 00:29:02,592
who had no idea.
562
00:29:02,676 --> 00:29:04,844
And the question of professionalism arises.
563
00:29:04,928 --> 00:29:06,721
There's a bad side and a good side to this, isn't there?
564
00:29:06,805 --> 00:29:09,182
Well, no. Do you know what it is?
It's not about bad and good.
565
00:29:09,266 --> 00:29:12,311
People get confused.
566
00:29:12,394 --> 00:29:13,978
Companies are confused.
567
00:29:14,062 --> 00:29:19,776
When they start to grow,
they want to replicate their initial success.
568
00:29:21,445 --> 00:29:23,196
And many think:
569
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,867
"Is there some form of magic
in the process of creating that success."
570
00:29:27,951 --> 00:29:32,497
Thus, they begin to try to institutionalize
the process across the company.
571
00:29:32,622 --> 00:29:37,919
Before long, people end up
for confusing the process with the content.
572
00:29:38,628 --> 00:29:40,380
And that was IBM's undoing.
573
00:29:40,464 --> 00:29:43,091
IBM has the best people
responsible for the processes.
574
00:29:43,174 --> 00:29:45,594
But they forgot the content.
575
00:29:45,677 --> 00:29:47,971
And it was a little
which also happened at Apple.
576
00:29:48,137 --> 00:29:51,475
We had a lot of great people
in process management.
577
00:29:51,558 --> 00:29:54,268
But they had no idea
of the contents.
578
00:29:54,353 --> 00:29:56,270
And, in my career,
579
00:29:56,355 --> 00:30:02,276
I learned that the best employees
are the ones who really understand the content
580
00:30:02,361 --> 00:30:05,113
and that they are a pain to manage.
581
00:30:05,196 --> 00:30:09,075
But we put up with it,
because they are excellent with content.
582
00:30:09,158 --> 00:30:12,954
This is what creates great products.
It's not the process. It's the content.
583
00:30:13,037 --> 00:30:15,832
We got a glimpse of this problem
at Apple.
584
00:30:16,958 --> 00:30:20,003
And this problem
ended up resulting in Lisa,
585
00:30:20,086 --> 00:30:23,757
which had its moments of brilliance.
586
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,926
On the one hand,
he was way ahead of his time,
587
00:30:27,010 --> 00:30:32,516
but there was not enough knowledge
on fundamental contents.
588
00:30:32,932 --> 00:30:35,352
Apple has strayed too far
of its roots.
589
00:30:35,435 --> 00:30:38,980
For these people at Hewlett-Packard,
10 thousand dollars was cheap.
590
00:30:39,063 --> 00:30:43,360
For our market and channels
of distribution, this was impossible.
591
00:30:43,443 --> 00:30:46,112
Thus, we produce a product
that had nothing to do
592
00:30:46,195 --> 00:30:48,782
with culture, image,
593
00:30:48,865 --> 00:30:51,660
distribution channels
or the company's current customers.
594
00:30:51,743 --> 00:30:53,953
None of them had money
for this product.
595
00:30:54,037 --> 00:30:55,830
And it failed.
596
00:30:56,915 --> 00:30:59,418
- The senor and John Couch...
- Right.
597
00:30:59,501 --> 00:31:03,004
- ...they fought to stay in front of Lisa.
- Yes, and I lost. That's right.
598
00:31:03,087 --> 00:31:04,130
How did this happen?
599
00:31:04,213 --> 00:31:07,008
I thought Lisa
was in great difficulty.
600
00:31:07,091 --> 00:31:10,887
I thought I was going
in a very bad direction, as I have already described.
601
00:31:16,768 --> 00:31:20,354
And I couldn't convince people
enough of Apple's senior management
602
00:31:20,439 --> 00:31:23,983
of that. Most of the time,
We manage things as a team.
603
00:31:24,067 --> 00:31:26,277
So I lost.
604
00:31:26,403 --> 00:31:31,491
And at that time...
I was thinking about this for a few months.
605
00:31:31,575 --> 00:31:34,035
But it didn't take long
606
00:31:34,118 --> 00:31:38,832
to occur to me
that if we didn't do something...
607
00:31:38,915 --> 00:31:41,209
The Apple II was losing gas,
608
00:31:41,292 --> 00:31:44,713
and we had to do something
with this technology quickly
609
00:31:44,796 --> 00:31:48,842
or Apple could cease to exist,
as long as the company it was.
610
00:31:49,676 --> 00:31:53,430
So I formed a little team
to make the Macintosh,
611
00:31:53,555 --> 00:31:58,435
and we were on a divine mission
to save Apple.
612
00:31:58,518 --> 00:32:01,938
But no one thought that,
but it turns out we were right.
613
00:32:03,565 --> 00:32:05,274
And as we improve the Mac,
614
00:32:05,358 --> 00:32:09,571
it became clear that it was also
a way to reinvent Apple.
615
00:32:10,404 --> 00:32:14,242
We reinvented everything. We reinvent manufacturing.
616
00:32:14,325 --> 00:32:17,036
I probably visited
80 automated factories in Japan,
617
00:32:17,161 --> 00:32:20,624
and we built the first factory
automated computer system in the world,
618
00:32:20,707 --> 00:32:21,791
here, in California.
619
00:32:21,875 --> 00:32:25,920
We adopt 68000 microprocessor
from Lisa.
620
00:32:26,004 --> 00:32:29,132
We negotiated a price that was a fifth
than Lisa would pay,
621
00:32:29,215 --> 00:32:31,384
because we would use it
in a much greater volume.
622
00:32:31,468 --> 00:32:36,264
And we started designing a product
that could be sold for a thousand dollars,
623
00:32:36,347 --> 00:32:38,099
called Macintosh.
624
00:32:38,182 --> 00:32:40,560
And we didn't.
625
00:32:40,644 --> 00:32:44,481
We could have sold it for $2,000.
Even though it was launched at US$2,500.
626
00:32:45,314 --> 00:32:48,902
And we spent four years of our lives
to do that.
627
00:32:48,985 --> 00:32:50,278
We create the product.
628
00:32:50,361 --> 00:32:54,157
We create the automated factory,
the machine to build the machine.
629
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,576
We created a distribution system
completely new.
630
00:32:56,660 --> 00:32:59,538
We create a market approach
completely different.
631
00:33:02,666 --> 00:33:04,543
And I think it worked very well.
632
00:33:06,169 --> 00:33:08,755
You motivated this team.
He had to guide her.
633
00:33:08,838 --> 00:33:09,839
We had to create the team.
634
00:33:09,923 --> 00:33:14,385
Create the team, motivate it,
guide her, deal with her.
635
00:33:14,468 --> 00:33:17,972
We interviewed a lot of people
from your Macintosh team.
636
00:33:18,056 --> 00:33:19,307
Great.
637
00:33:20,517 --> 00:33:25,229
And everything ends up ending up in your passion,
It's your vision and...
638
00:33:25,313 --> 00:33:27,566
How do you organize your priorities?
639
00:33:27,649 --> 00:33:31,027
What is important to you
in developing a product?
640
00:33:44,916 --> 00:33:45,917
You know...
641
00:33:50,213 --> 00:33:52,423
One of the things
that really hurt Apple
642
00:33:52,506 --> 00:33:57,136
was John Sculley's serious illness,
after I had left.
643
00:33:57,220 --> 00:34:01,015
I've seen other people
get this disease.
644
00:34:01,099 --> 00:34:06,563
It's the disease of thinking
that a great idea is 90% of the work
645
00:34:07,271 --> 00:34:12,318
and that if we tell everyone
this great idea,
646
00:34:12,401 --> 00:34:15,071
They will take it and make it come true.
647
00:34:15,864 --> 00:34:21,953
The problem with that
is that there is a huge amount of work
648
00:34:22,036 --> 00:34:25,373
between a great idea and a great product.
649
00:34:25,456 --> 00:34:29,335
And, as it develops
This is a great idea, it changes and grows.
650
00:34:29,418 --> 00:34:31,254
It never ends how it started,
651
00:34:31,337 --> 00:34:33,798
because we learned so much more
when dealing with its subtleties
652
00:34:33,882 --> 00:34:37,677
and we also discovered that there are
tremendous commitments to make.
653
00:34:37,761 --> 00:34:41,430
There are certain things we cannot force
the electrons to be made.
654
00:34:41,514 --> 00:34:42,515
There are certain things
655
00:34:42,599 --> 00:34:47,604
that we cannot force the plastic,
the glass, the factories or the robots to be made.
656
00:34:47,687 --> 00:34:52,025
And as we realize this,
the design of a product
657
00:34:52,108 --> 00:34:57,196
It's keeping these 5,000 concepts in your head
658
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,869
and fit them all in, continuing to force
so they fit well
659
00:35:02,952 --> 00:35:05,955
in new and different ways,
to get what we want.
660
00:35:06,748 --> 00:35:11,210
And every day we discover something new,
a new problem or opportunity
661
00:35:11,294 --> 00:35:13,880
to fit these things
in a slightly different way.
662
00:35:13,963 --> 00:35:18,426
And this is the process that is magical.
663
00:35:20,637 --> 00:35:25,058
We had a lot of great ideas
when we started.
664
00:35:25,141 --> 00:35:26,309
But I always felt
665
00:35:26,392 --> 00:35:29,520
that a team doing something
What you believe is like...
666
00:35:29,603 --> 00:35:35,902
When I was a boy,
There was a living person who lived on my street.
667
00:35:36,861 --> 00:35:39,739
And that was in the 80s.
668
00:35:40,657 --> 00:35:42,491
It had a slightly scary appearance.
669
00:35:42,575 --> 00:35:44,493
And I got to know him a little.
670
00:35:45,745 --> 00:35:47,747
Maybe you paid me
to cut his grass.
671
00:35:47,831 --> 00:35:48,832
One day he said:
672
00:35:48,915 --> 00:35:50,374
"Come to the garage. I want to show you something."
673
00:35:50,458 --> 00:35:53,086
And he took it from there
an old rock polishing machine.
674
00:35:53,169 --> 00:35:57,841
It had an engine, a coffee can
and a strap between the two.
675
00:35:58,341 --> 00:35:59,342
And he said, "Come with me."
676
00:35:59,425 --> 00:36:02,929
We went to the back
and we found some rocks.
677
00:36:03,012 --> 00:36:05,348
Normal, old, ugly rocks.
678
00:36:05,431 --> 00:36:06,766
And we put them in the can,
679
00:36:06,850 --> 00:36:11,813
with a little liquid
and some gravel.
680
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,607
We close the can,
681
00:36:14,691 --> 00:36:18,361
He started the engine and said:
"Come back, tomorrow."
682
00:36:18,444 --> 00:36:21,865
The can made a loud noise
while the stones rolled inside.
683
00:36:21,948 --> 00:36:25,952
I came back the next day, opened the can
684
00:36:26,035 --> 00:36:30,164
and we took some polished rocks from there
incredibly beautiful.
685
00:36:33,376 --> 00:36:37,088
The same normal stones
who had entered,
686
00:36:37,756 --> 00:36:40,341
when they brush against each other, like this,
687
00:36:40,424 --> 00:36:43,219
creating some friction and noise,
688
00:36:43,302 --> 00:36:45,722
some beautiful polished rocks had emerged.
689
00:36:45,805 --> 00:36:48,892
And, in my head,
That's always been my metaphor
690
00:36:48,975 --> 00:36:53,146
for a hard working team
in something that you are passionate about.
691
00:36:53,229 --> 00:36:57,483
It's through the team, through this group
of incredibly talented people,
692
00:36:57,566 --> 00:36:59,110
bumping into each other,
693
00:36:59,193 --> 00:37:04,490
arguing, fighting sometimes,
making noise and working together,
694
00:37:04,573 --> 00:37:07,201
let them jump over each other
and skip the ideas,
695
00:37:07,285 --> 00:37:10,121
truly beautiful stones come out.
696
00:37:13,207 --> 00:37:17,837
It's difficult to explain. And it is certainly not
the result of a single person.
697
00:37:17,921 --> 00:37:21,090
People like symbols,
therefore, I symbolize certain things.
698
00:37:22,884 --> 00:37:25,011
But the Mac really was a team effort.
699
00:37:26,345 --> 00:37:31,642
In my life, I noticed, very early on,
something happening at Apple,
700
00:37:33,436 --> 00:37:35,021
that...
701
00:37:35,104 --> 00:37:39,192
I didn't know how to explain it at the time,
But I've been thinking about it a lot since then.
702
00:37:39,275 --> 00:37:40,860
In most things in my life,
703
00:37:40,944 --> 00:37:46,032
the dynamic range between what is normal
and what is better is two to one.
704
00:37:46,657 --> 00:37:47,867
When going to New York,
705
00:37:47,951 --> 00:37:51,412
if we consider the difference
between a normal taxi and the best,
706
00:37:51,495 --> 00:37:55,917
It is likely that we will reach our destination,
with the best taxi,
707
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,710
maybe 30% faster.
708
00:37:57,794 --> 00:38:00,338
In a car, what is the difference
between a normal one and the best?
709
00:38:00,421 --> 00:38:02,548
Maybe 20%.
710
00:38:02,631 --> 00:38:04,633
Is the best CD player a regular one?
711
00:38:04,717 --> 00:38:05,969
I don't know. 20%.
712
00:38:06,052 --> 00:38:09,848
So two to one is a big gap
dynamic for most of life.
713
00:38:12,851 --> 00:38:16,770
Regarding the software,
and it used to be the same with hardware,
714
00:38:16,855 --> 00:38:19,065
the difference between normal and best
715
00:38:19,148 --> 00:38:22,360
It's 50 to one or maybe 100 to one.
716
00:38:22,443 --> 00:38:23,694
- Easy. Yes.
- Right?
717
00:38:23,777 --> 00:38:26,823
There are very few things in life like this.
718
00:38:26,906 --> 00:38:31,494
But what I was lucky for
to dedicate my life like this.
719
00:38:33,329 --> 00:38:37,083
So it built a lot of my success
720
00:38:37,166 --> 00:38:41,212
to find
truly gifted people,
721
00:38:41,295 --> 00:38:45,258
not settling for the good
or very good, but rather excellent.
722
00:38:45,341 --> 00:38:46,843
And I discovered something.
723
00:38:46,926 --> 00:38:50,263
I found that when we have enough
excellent people together,
724
00:38:50,346 --> 00:38:54,808
when we do amazing work
to find five excellent people,
725
00:38:54,893 --> 00:38:56,560
they really enjoy working together,
726
00:38:56,644 --> 00:38:59,355
because they never had
this opportunity before.
727
00:38:59,438 --> 00:39:02,483
And they don't want to work
with good and very good people.
728
00:39:02,566 --> 00:39:06,279
There ends up being self-control,
they will only want excellent people,
729
00:39:06,362 --> 00:39:10,283
and thus we create pockets of people
excellent, propagating the action.
730
00:39:10,408 --> 00:39:15,496
The Mac team was like this,
all made up of excellent people.
731
00:39:18,707 --> 00:39:21,085
And they were extraordinarily talented.
732
00:39:22,795 --> 00:39:25,089
But they are also people who now say
733
00:39:25,173 --> 00:39:28,301
who no longer have the energy
to work for you.
734
00:39:29,218 --> 00:39:30,219
Of course.
735
00:39:30,887 --> 00:39:34,057
If you talk to a lot of people
from the Mac team,
736
00:39:34,140 --> 00:39:38,436
they will tell you
who have never worked so hard in their lives.
737
00:39:39,562 --> 00:39:42,899
Some will tell you
who have never been so happy.
738
00:39:42,982 --> 00:39:44,858
But I think everyone will tell you
739
00:39:44,984 --> 00:39:48,612
which is one of the experiences
more intense and esteemed
740
00:39:48,696 --> 00:39:50,323
that they will never have.
741
00:39:50,406 --> 00:39:51,740
Yes, they said.
742
00:39:58,664 --> 00:40:02,126
Some people can't take it
some of these things.
743
00:40:02,210 --> 00:40:05,754
What does it mean to tell someone
that their work sucks?
744
00:40:08,925 --> 00:40:11,219
It usually means
that their work is shit.
745
00:40:11,302 --> 00:40:15,264
Sometimes it means, "I think your
work sucks, and I'm wrong."
746
00:40:18,601 --> 00:40:22,480
But it usually means
that their work is not up to date.
747
00:40:22,563 --> 00:40:24,648
There's a great quote from Bill Atkinson,
what does it say
748
00:40:24,732 --> 00:40:27,776
that when we say that someone's work
It sucks, we mean:
749
00:40:27,860 --> 00:40:31,030
"I don't quite understand. Can you explain?"
750
00:40:32,115 --> 00:40:34,242
Normally, that's not what I mean.
751
00:40:38,579 --> 00:40:40,748
When we have really good people,
752
00:40:42,708 --> 00:40:44,377
they know they are really good,
753
00:40:44,460 --> 00:40:47,921
and we don't need
to feed their egos too much,
754
00:40:48,006 --> 00:40:50,049
What really matters is the work.
755
00:40:50,133 --> 00:40:53,427
And everyone knows that.
That all that matters is work.
756
00:40:57,974 --> 00:41:02,853
We count on people to do
certain parts of the puzzle.
757
00:41:03,854 --> 00:41:06,565
And for me, the most important thing
758
00:41:06,649 --> 00:41:11,612
What can we do for someone who
It's really good and who we count on seriously
759
00:41:11,695 --> 00:41:17,285
is to warn you that your work
It's not good enough.
760
00:41:18,077 --> 00:41:21,789
Do it very clearly,
explaining the reason,
761
00:41:21,872 --> 00:41:24,125
to get you back on track.
762
00:41:24,208 --> 00:41:25,251
And we have to do this
763
00:41:25,334 --> 00:41:29,672
so that we do not call into question
our confidence in your abilities,
764
00:41:29,755 --> 00:41:33,134
but that doesn't work
a large margin of interpretation
765
00:41:33,217 --> 00:41:36,470
that the work you did
for this particular thing
766
00:41:36,554 --> 00:41:39,932
not good enough
in relation to the team's objective.
767
00:41:40,016 --> 00:41:41,850
And it's a difficult thing to do.
768
00:41:43,186 --> 00:41:45,271
And I always chose
by a very direct approach.
769
00:41:48,024 --> 00:41:51,902
And I find that if I talk to people
who worked for me,
770
00:41:51,985 --> 00:41:54,613
really good people
they think it was beneficial to them.
771
00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:58,367
Some people hated it.
772
00:42:02,205 --> 00:42:06,250
I'm also one of those people
who doesn't care about being right.
773
00:42:07,710 --> 00:42:10,338
I only care about success.
774
00:42:10,421 --> 00:42:13,299
You will meet many people who will tell you
775
00:42:13,382 --> 00:42:19,222
that when I had a convinced opinion
and they presented evidence to the contrary,
776
00:42:19,305 --> 00:42:21,807
five minutes later,
I completely changed my opinion.
777
00:42:21,890 --> 00:42:24,143
Because that's how I am.
I don't mind being wrong.
778
00:42:24,227 --> 00:42:27,771
I will admit that I am wrong many times.
I don't care much about that.
779
00:42:27,855 --> 00:42:30,774
What matters to me is that we do
which is right.
780
00:42:30,858 --> 00:42:34,237
How and why Apple started
with computer-assisted editing,
781
00:42:34,362 --> 00:42:37,240
what would become
the quintessential Mac application?
782
00:42:37,323 --> 00:42:38,991
I don't know if you know this,
783
00:42:39,075 --> 00:42:42,661
but Canon's first laser printer
in the US it was sent to Apple,
784
00:42:42,745 --> 00:42:46,749
we connect it to Lisa, creating images
of the pages before everyone else.
785
00:42:46,832 --> 00:42:50,253
Before HP.
Long before HP and Adobe.
786
00:42:50,336 --> 00:42:52,338
But people told me a few times:
787
00:42:52,421 --> 00:42:54,882
"Some guys who left Xerox PARC
they work in a garage.
788
00:42:54,965 --> 00:42:56,008
"You should go see them."
789
00:42:56,092 --> 00:43:00,221
Finally I went to see them
and saw what they were doing.
790
00:43:00,304 --> 00:43:02,390
And it was better
than what we were doing.
791
00:43:02,473 --> 00:43:03,599
They were going to be a hardware company.
792
00:43:03,682 --> 00:43:05,434
They wanted to make printers and stuff.
793
00:43:05,518 --> 00:43:08,562
And I convinced them
to become a software company.
794
00:43:11,565 --> 00:43:15,694
And, in two or three weeks, we had
canceled our internal project.
795
00:43:15,778 --> 00:43:18,281
Some people wanted to kill me
because of that.
796
00:43:18,364 --> 00:43:22,285
I had made a deal with Adobe
to use your software,
797
00:43:22,368 --> 00:43:25,579
and we bought 19.9% of Adobe from Apple.
798
00:43:25,663 --> 00:43:28,499
They needed financing.
We want control.
799
00:43:28,582 --> 00:43:32,711
And we were ready to race.
Canon provided us with the engines.
800
00:43:32,795 --> 00:43:36,424
We designed the first controller
laser printer at Apple.
801
00:43:36,507 --> 00:43:39,760
And with Adobe software,
we built the LaserWriter.
802
00:43:39,843 --> 00:43:44,432
And no one else in the company wanted to do it,
except us, the Mac group.
803
00:43:44,515 --> 00:43:47,268
Everyone thought that a printer
7,000 dollars was crazy.
804
00:43:47,351 --> 00:43:50,313
They didn't realize we could share it
through AppleTalk.
805
00:43:50,396 --> 00:43:52,981
understood intellectually,
but not viscerally,
806
00:43:53,065 --> 00:43:56,235
because the last thing is very expensive
that we had tried to sell Lisa away.
807
00:43:56,319 --> 00:43:57,903
So we took that forward.
808
00:43:57,986 --> 00:43:59,988
I had to pass
over some corpses,
809
00:44:00,072 --> 00:44:01,282
but we took it further.
810
00:44:01,365 --> 00:44:04,160
It was the first laser printer
of the market, as you know.
811
00:44:04,243 --> 00:44:06,620
And the rest is history.
812
00:44:06,704 --> 00:44:07,705
When I left Apple,
813
00:44:07,788 --> 00:44:11,124
it was the biggest printer company
in the world in terms of revenue.
814
00:44:13,461 --> 00:44:16,297
Unfortunately, he lost that title
for Hewlett-Packard
815
00:44:16,380 --> 00:44:19,425
about three or four years after I left.
816
00:44:19,550 --> 00:44:22,010
But when I left, it was the biggest company
of printers in the world.
817
00:44:22,135 --> 00:44:26,224
Perspective of assisted editing
by computer? Was it easy?
818
00:44:32,938 --> 00:44:34,815
Yes.
819
00:44:34,898 --> 00:44:39,237
But we also perspective
a networked office.
820
00:44:39,987 --> 00:44:42,531
Therefore, in January 1995,
821
00:44:42,615 --> 00:44:45,534
at our annual meeting,
where we presented new products,
822
00:44:45,618 --> 00:44:49,121
I made, perhaps, the biggest marketing faux pas
of my career.
823
00:44:49,204 --> 00:44:51,957
- In 1985.
- In 1985, sorry.
824
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,293
I made the biggest marketing gaffe
of my career
825
00:44:54,377 --> 00:44:59,923
when advertising Macintosh Office, rather than
only computer-assisted editing.
826
00:45:00,924 --> 00:45:05,554
And computer-aided editing
was a crucial component of that,
827
00:45:05,638 --> 00:45:08,474
but we announced a number of other things.
828
00:45:08,557 --> 00:45:11,644
At the time, we should have focused
in assisted editing.
829
00:45:11,852 --> 00:45:15,230
After serious disagreements
with Apple CEO John Sculley
830
00:45:15,398 --> 00:45:18,734
Steve left the company in 1985.
831
00:45:18,901 --> 00:45:21,153
Tell us about your departure from Apple.
832
00:45:21,279 --> 00:45:24,532
It was very painful.
I don't even know if I want to talk about it.
833
00:45:28,869 --> 00:45:31,330
What can I say?
I hired the wrong guy.
834
00:45:31,414 --> 00:45:32,706
- You mean Sculley?
- Yes.
835
00:45:35,709 --> 00:45:39,547
He destroyed everything
because I worked for 10 years.
836
00:45:41,131 --> 00:45:44,593
Starting with me,
but that wasn't the saddest part.
837
00:45:44,677 --> 00:45:46,637
I would have gladly left Apple,
838
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:49,765
if Apple had transformed
what I would like.
839
00:45:51,475 --> 00:45:56,063
He got into a spaceship
which was about to take off.
840
00:45:56,146 --> 00:45:58,023
The spaceship took off.
841
00:46:01,485 --> 00:46:02,653
And it went to his head.
842
00:46:02,736 --> 00:46:06,281
He got confused and thought
who had built the spaceship.
843
00:46:08,659 --> 00:46:10,619
And then,
844
00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:13,581
changed the trajectory,
845
00:46:13,664 --> 00:46:16,709
inevitably causing
she would hit the ground.
846
00:46:16,792 --> 00:46:18,085
But it was always...
847
00:46:18,168 --> 00:46:21,254
In the days before the Macintosh
and in the early days of the Macintosh,
848
00:46:21,339 --> 00:46:23,048
it was always Steve and John.
849
00:46:23,131 --> 00:46:24,925
You were like flesh and blood.
850
00:46:25,008 --> 00:46:26,051
Yes, it's true.
851
00:46:26,134 --> 00:46:29,221
- And something happened that separated you.
- Right.
852
00:46:29,304 --> 00:46:31,056
What caused this?
853
00:46:31,139 --> 00:46:33,684
What happened
854
00:46:34,142 --> 00:46:37,813
was that the industry went into recession
855
00:46:37,896 --> 00:46:40,566
at the end of 1984.
856
00:46:40,649 --> 00:46:43,652
There was a serious reduction in sales.
857
00:46:44,362 --> 00:46:47,239
And John didn't know what to do.
858
00:46:47,865 --> 00:46:49,324
I had no idea.
859
00:46:49,658 --> 00:46:53,078
And there was a leadership void
in Apple's senior management.
860
00:46:53,161 --> 00:46:56,457
There were very strong managers
In front of the departments.
861
00:46:56,540 --> 00:46:57,958
I ran the Macintosh department,
862
00:46:58,041 --> 00:46:59,918
another managed the Apple II, etc.
863
00:47:00,002 --> 00:47:01,754
There were problems in some departments.
864
00:47:01,837 --> 00:47:03,881
Who managed the storage department
865
00:47:03,964 --> 00:47:05,424
he was totally incompetent.
866
00:47:05,508 --> 00:47:07,426
There were several things to change.
867
00:47:07,510 --> 00:47:11,847
But all these problems got worse
868
00:47:11,930 --> 00:47:14,933
due to the market crisis.
869
00:47:15,434 --> 00:47:16,977
And there was no leader.
870
00:47:19,688 --> 00:47:21,189
John
871
00:47:22,525 --> 00:47:26,487
was in a situation,
in which the administration was not happy
872
00:47:27,530 --> 00:47:32,701
and in which there was a serious risk
of being fired.
873
00:47:33,744 --> 00:47:37,748
And something I hadn't seen in John
until this time
874
00:47:37,831 --> 00:47:40,793
was that there was
an incredible survival instinct.
875
00:47:41,376 --> 00:47:42,420
Once, I was told:
876
00:47:42,503 --> 00:47:45,464
"This guy didn't arrive
the president of PepsiCo,
877
00:47:45,548 --> 00:47:48,133
"without those kind of instincts."
878
00:47:48,216 --> 00:47:50,469
And it was true.
879
00:47:50,553 --> 00:47:53,138
John decided
880
00:47:53,221 --> 00:47:58,143
What a good person to be the root
of all these problems would be me.
881
00:47:58,226 --> 00:48:02,690
And we disagreed.
882
00:48:03,065 --> 00:48:07,611
John had cultivated a relationship
very close with the administration.
883
00:48:08,236 --> 00:48:09,613
And they believed him.
884
00:48:10,113 --> 00:48:12,074
And that's what happened.
885
00:48:12,157 --> 00:48:14,702
Were there competing visions for the company?
886
00:48:14,785 --> 00:48:15,828
Clearly.
887
00:48:15,911 --> 00:48:18,080
They weren't quite competing visions,
888
00:48:18,163 --> 00:48:19,748
because I think
that John didn't have a vision.
889
00:48:19,832 --> 00:48:24,127
What was your vision
What did you end up losing at that time?
890
00:48:24,753 --> 00:48:27,923
It wasn't a question of vision.
891
00:48:28,006 --> 00:48:30,509
It was a question
892
00:48:32,135 --> 00:48:34,387
execution.
893
00:48:34,472 --> 00:48:38,517
In the sense that I believed
894
00:48:38,601 --> 00:48:42,521
that Apple needed
of stronger leadership
895
00:48:43,396 --> 00:48:47,693
to unite the various factions
that we had created with the departments,
896
00:48:47,776 --> 00:48:49,903
that the Macintosh was the future of Apple,
897
00:48:49,987 --> 00:48:53,991
that we had to cut dramatically
in Apple II area expenses
898
00:48:54,074 --> 00:48:57,953
and that we had to invest greatly
in the Macintosh area.
899
00:48:59,663 --> 00:49:01,039
Things like that.
900
00:49:01,123 --> 00:49:06,545
And John's vision was that he had
to continue being the company's CEO.
901
00:49:06,629 --> 00:49:09,923
And anything
Helping him would be acceptable.
902
00:49:14,553 --> 00:49:16,138
I think that
903
00:49:17,305 --> 00:49:21,810
a Apple estava em um estado de paralisia
at the beginning of 1985.
904
00:49:24,980 --> 00:49:29,067
E, naquela �poca, n�o tinha a capacidade
905
00:49:29,151 --> 00:49:31,403
de administrar a empresa como um todo.
906
00:49:32,112 --> 00:49:34,072
He was 30 years old.
907
00:49:34,156 --> 00:49:39,369
E n�o tinha experi�ncia para gerenciar uma
empresa de dois bilh�es de d�lares.
908
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,331
Infelizmente, John tamb�m n�o.
909
00:49:46,627 --> 00:49:52,507
De qualquer forma, eles me disseram,
claramente, que n�o havia lugar para mim.
910
00:49:53,216 --> 00:49:56,344
- Foi verdadeiramente tr�gico.
- Siberia.
911
00:49:56,428 --> 00:50:00,140
A Apple teria sido mais inteligente se eu
tivesse deixado trabalhar no pr�ximo...
912
00:50:00,223 --> 00:50:02,768
I volunteered: "Can I open
an investigation department?
913
00:50:02,851 --> 00:50:06,521
"Give me a few million dollars a year,
that I hire excellent people.
914
00:50:06,605 --> 00:50:08,481
"The next success will be ours."
915
00:50:08,566 --> 00:50:11,819
And they told me
that this hypothesis did not exist.
916
00:50:11,902 --> 00:50:15,113
So they took away my office.
917
00:50:15,197 --> 00:50:18,742
I will be very emotional
if we keep talking about this.
918
00:50:18,826 --> 00:50:21,411
Anyway... it's irrelevant.
919
00:50:21,494 --> 00:50:24,122
I'm a person.
And the company was many other people.
920
00:50:24,206 --> 00:50:25,583
That's not the important part.
921
00:50:25,666 --> 00:50:27,209
The important part was
922
00:50:28,376 --> 00:50:34,049
that Apple's values were destroyed
systematically in the following years.
923
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,178
Next I asked Steve
what you thought about the Apple situation.
924
00:50:38,261 --> 00:50:42,182
Remember it was 1995,
a year before returning to Apple.
925
00:50:42,265 --> 00:50:45,769
And that when Apple bought it
NeXT in the year following this interview,
926
00:50:45,853 --> 00:50:50,565
Steve immediately sold all his shares
from Apple that he received as part of the sale.
927
00:50:50,983 --> 00:50:53,068
Apple is dying.
928
00:50:53,151 --> 00:50:55,779
A very painful death.
929
00:50:55,863 --> 00:50:59,491
It's plummeting.
930
00:50:59,574 --> 00:51:02,828
And the reason...
931
00:51:02,911 --> 00:51:04,329
When you leave Apple,
932
00:51:04,412 --> 00:51:06,957
we had a 10 year advance
over the rest of the industry.
933
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:08,500
The Macintosh was 10 years ahead.
934
00:51:08,583 --> 00:51:11,629
We see Microsoft taking 10 years
to catch him.
935
00:51:11,712 --> 00:51:15,966
And they managed to catch him,
because Apple stagnated.
936
00:51:16,049 --> 00:51:20,763
Today's Macintosh is 25% different
from the Macintosh when I left.
937
00:51:21,972 --> 00:51:24,850
They spent hundreds of millions of dollars
in research and development.
938
00:51:24,933 --> 00:51:28,771
A total
of perhaps 5 billion dollars.
939
00:51:29,521 --> 00:51:31,481
And what did they gain from it?
940
00:51:32,190 --> 00:51:33,651
I don't know.
941
00:51:33,734 --> 00:51:35,318
But...
942
00:51:37,780 --> 00:51:39,907
What happened was
943
00:51:39,990 --> 00:51:42,993
that the notion
944
00:51:43,076 --> 00:51:48,540
how to move things forward
and create new products
945
00:51:48,623 --> 00:51:50,417
had, somehow, evaporated.
946
00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:53,378
I think many of the good employees
they stayed for some time.
947
00:51:53,461 --> 00:51:55,964
But there was no opportunity
to come together,
948
00:51:56,048 --> 00:51:58,466
because there was no leadership
to do it.
949
00:51:59,301 --> 00:52:04,306
What happened now, with Apple,
They were late in several aspects,
950
00:52:04,389 --> 00:52:05,724
certainly in market share.
951
00:52:05,808 --> 00:52:06,892
And, most importantly,
952
00:52:06,975 --> 00:52:10,562
its differentiation
was corrupted by Microsoft.
953
00:52:10,645 --> 00:52:14,149
Now, they have their base in place.
954
00:52:14,232 --> 00:52:17,110
That is not growing,
but rather slowly shrinking,
955
00:52:17,194 --> 00:52:22,324
however, it will provide
a good revenue stream for several years.
956
00:52:22,825 --> 00:52:25,869
But it's a steep fall,
that will happen like this.
957
00:52:26,704 --> 00:52:29,206
It's a shame.
958
00:52:29,289 --> 00:52:32,084
And I don't think it's reversible,
at this moment.
959
00:52:32,167 --> 00:52:35,045
Neither do I. What about Microsoft?
960
00:52:35,128 --> 00:52:37,923
- Now, it's the colossus.
- Right.
961
00:52:38,006 --> 00:52:43,678
And it's a Ford LTD
962
00:52:43,762 --> 00:52:45,263
towards the future.
963
00:52:45,347 --> 00:52:48,141
It's certainly not a Cadillac.
It's not a BMW.
964
00:52:48,225 --> 00:52:50,518
- Yes.
- It's just...
965
00:52:50,728 --> 00:52:54,189
What's going on? How did they do that?
966
00:52:57,525 --> 00:53:04,157
Microsoft's orbit was made possible by
to the Saturn V propellant called IBM.
967
00:53:05,533 --> 00:53:08,912
And I know Bill would be mad at me
for saying this,
968
00:53:08,996 --> 00:53:11,206
but it is clearly true.
969
00:53:14,209 --> 00:53:16,419
And I give a lot of credit to Bill and Microsoft
970
00:53:16,503 --> 00:53:21,633
for using this fantastic opportunity
to create more opportunities for themselves.
971
00:53:21,716 --> 00:53:25,512
Most don't remember,
but until 1984, with the Mac, Microsoft
972
00:53:25,595 --> 00:53:27,305
I wasn't in the applications business.
973
00:53:27,389 --> 00:53:29,099
It was dominated by Lotus.
974
00:53:29,182 --> 00:53:32,560
And Microsoft took a big risk
when writing to the Mac.
975
00:53:32,644 --> 00:53:35,397
And they presented horrible applications.
976
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,983
But they didn't give up, they improved them
977
00:53:38,066 --> 00:53:40,819
and ended up passing
dominating the Mac app market.
978
00:53:40,903 --> 00:53:43,738
And then they used
a Windows launch pad
979
00:53:43,822 --> 00:53:46,658
to enter the PC market,
with the same applications.
980
00:53:46,741 --> 00:53:49,161
Now they also dominate
applications for the PC.
981
00:53:49,244 --> 00:53:50,703
Thus, they have two characteristics.
982
00:53:50,788 --> 00:53:54,499
They are strong opportunists,
and I'm not saying it in a bad way.
983
00:53:54,582 --> 00:53:57,961
And they are like the Japanese.
They are always attacking.
984
00:53:58,045 --> 00:54:02,424
They were able to do this, due to the flow
revenue from the agreement with IBM.
985
00:54:02,925 --> 00:54:07,679
However, they made the best of it
and I give them a lot of credit for that.
986
00:54:07,762 --> 00:54:11,224
Microsoft's only problem
It's just that they don't have good taste.
987
00:54:11,308 --> 00:54:14,561
No good taste. Which means...
988
00:54:14,644 --> 00:54:17,189
I don't mean on a small scale,
but big.
989
00:54:17,272 --> 00:54:18,648
In the sense that...
990
00:54:25,572 --> 00:54:27,866
...don't think about original ideas
991
00:54:27,950 --> 00:54:31,578
and do not introduce much culture
in your product.
992
00:54:31,661 --> 00:54:33,997
And you ask me:
"Why is this important?"
993
00:54:34,081 --> 00:54:37,918
Fonts with proportional spacing
come from compositions and beautiful books.
994
00:54:38,001 --> 00:54:39,711
That's where we'll get the idea.
995
00:54:39,794 --> 00:54:43,590
If it weren't for Mac,
they would never have had that in their products.
996
00:54:46,634 --> 00:54:51,681
So I think I feel sad,
not because of Microsoft's success.
997
00:54:51,764 --> 00:54:53,892
I have no problems with your success.
998
00:54:53,976 --> 00:54:57,437
They deserve most of their success.
999
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,900
I have a problem with the fact
to make third-rate products.
1000
00:55:01,984 --> 00:55:05,237
Your products have no soul.
1001
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,908
Their products lack soul and innovation.
1002
00:55:09,992 --> 00:55:12,244
They are very banal.
1003
00:55:12,327 --> 00:55:17,749
And the saddest thing is that most
of customers don't have that soul either.
1004
00:55:17,832 --> 00:55:22,754
But the way our species evolves
1005
00:55:22,837 --> 00:55:26,633
� grab the best
and make it available to everyone,
1006
00:55:26,716 --> 00:55:29,594
so that everyone grows up with better things
1007
00:55:29,677 --> 00:55:33,891
and start to realize
the subtlety of these better things.
1008
00:55:39,104 --> 00:55:41,773
And Microsoft is... like McDonald's.
1009
00:55:41,856 --> 00:55:45,068
That's what saddens me.
1010
00:55:45,777 --> 00:55:47,946
Not that Microsoft won,
1011
00:55:48,030 --> 00:55:51,241
but that Microsoft products
don't have...
1012
00:55:54,619 --> 00:55:56,955
...more vision and more creativity.
1013
00:55:57,039 --> 00:56:00,792
And what are you going to do about it?
Tell us about NeXT.
1014
00:56:00,875 --> 00:56:03,628
- I'm not going to do anything about it.
- Right.
1015
00:56:03,711 --> 00:56:07,174
Because NeXT is a company
too small to do anything.
1016
00:56:08,716 --> 00:56:10,385
I'm just observing.
1017
00:56:10,468 --> 00:56:14,222
And there is nothing
what you can do about it.
1018
00:56:15,348 --> 00:56:16,975
Next, we talk about NeXT,
1019
00:56:17,059 --> 00:56:21,813
the company Steve managed in 1995
and which would be purchased by Apple soon.
1020
00:56:21,896 --> 00:56:26,109
The software from NeXT would become
the heart of the Mac, through OS X.
1021
00:56:27,069 --> 00:56:28,320
You don't want me to talk about NeXT, right?
1022
00:56:28,403 --> 00:56:30,447
- Yes I want.
- He wants. Very good.
1023
00:56:34,993 --> 00:56:36,703
Since we don't have much time, the best
1024
00:56:36,786 --> 00:56:38,330
will tell you what NeXT is today.
1025
00:56:38,413 --> 00:56:40,415
- It's fine.
- No...
1026
00:56:43,501 --> 00:56:45,670
There hasn't been...
1027
00:56:51,759 --> 00:56:53,720
Clearly,
1028
00:56:56,931 --> 00:57:00,435
innovations in the IT industry
are happening in software.
1029
00:57:04,439 --> 00:57:08,986
And there was no revolution in the form
how we create software a long time ago...
1030
00:57:10,153 --> 00:57:11,779
Sorry.
1031
00:57:13,781 --> 00:57:15,867
Industry innovations
are in the software.
1032
00:57:15,951 --> 00:57:19,662
And there was no real revolution
in the way we create software.
1033
00:57:19,746 --> 00:57:23,041
At least in the last 20 years.
In fact, it has even gotten worse.
1034
00:57:23,125 --> 00:57:27,379
While the Macintosh was a revolution
by facilitating end-user use,
1035
00:57:27,462 --> 00:57:31,174
it was the opposite for the manufacturer.
The manufacturer paid the price.
1036
00:57:31,258 --> 00:57:33,551
And the software became much more difficult
to write
1037
00:57:33,635 --> 00:57:35,470
by becoming easier for the user.
1038
00:57:37,597 --> 00:57:41,018
The software is infiltrating
in everything we do today.
1039
00:57:41,143 --> 00:57:44,896
In business, software is one of the weapons
more powerful and competitive.
1040
00:57:44,980 --> 00:57:48,441
The most successful business war
1041
00:57:48,525 --> 00:57:51,819
was MCI's Friends and Family,
in the last 10 years.
1042
00:57:51,903 --> 00:57:52,988
And what was it?
1043
00:57:53,071 --> 00:57:55,865
It was a brilliant idea,
Customized billing software.
1044
00:57:55,948 --> 00:57:58,160
ATandT did not respond for 18 months,
1045
00:57:58,243 --> 00:58:00,912
giving away millions of dollars
of market shares � MCI,
1046
00:58:00,996 --> 00:58:01,997
not because they were stupid,
1047
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,541
but because they couldn't do it
the billing software.
1048
00:58:04,624 --> 00:58:07,877
Using this example
and examples of lesser importance,
1049
00:58:08,003 --> 00:58:12,007
we see that software is becoming
an incredible force in this world.
1050
00:58:13,175 --> 00:58:15,218
To offer new goods and services,
1051
00:58:15,302 --> 00:58:17,845
whether on the Internet or whatever.
1052
00:58:17,929 --> 00:58:20,807
The software will be
a crucial enabler in our society.
1053
00:58:22,684 --> 00:58:28,190
We grabbed another brilliant original idea
from Xerox PARC
1054
00:58:28,356 --> 00:58:31,318
that I saw in 1979,
but which I did not see clearly at the time,
1055
00:58:31,401 --> 00:58:33,445
called object-oriented technology.
1056
00:58:33,570 --> 00:58:36,864
And we perfected it, we marketed it
1057
00:58:36,948 --> 00:58:39,409
and we become your biggest supplier
to the market.
1058
00:58:39,492 --> 00:58:45,748
This technology lets us create software
10 times faster and better.
1059
00:58:46,833 --> 00:58:49,294
And that's what we do.
1060
00:58:49,377 --> 00:58:51,754
We are a small-medium company
1061
00:58:51,838 --> 00:58:54,132
and the largest supplier of objects.
1062
00:58:54,216 --> 00:58:56,676
We are a company
from 50 to 75 million dollars.
1063
00:58:56,759 --> 00:58:58,261
We have around 300 employees.
1064
00:58:58,345 --> 00:58:59,721
And that's what we do.
1065
00:59:01,764 --> 00:59:04,892
The third part of the program
1066
00:59:04,976 --> 00:59:07,104
It's the moment when we look to the future,
1067
00:59:07,187 --> 00:59:09,147
- because Channel 4 asked us to.
- Of course.
1068
00:59:09,231 --> 00:59:13,318
Therefore,
What is your vision, 10 years from now,
1069
00:59:13,401 --> 00:59:17,197
about this technology
What are you developing?
1070
00:59:20,658 --> 00:59:24,412
I think the Internet and the Web...
1071
00:59:25,372 --> 00:59:28,416
There are two exciting things
in today's software and computing.
1072
00:59:28,500 --> 00:59:31,043
I think one is the objects
and the other is the Web.
1073
00:59:31,128 --> 00:59:32,837
The Web is incredibly exciting,
1074
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,882
because it is the realization
of many of our dreams,
1075
00:59:35,965 --> 00:59:40,345
the computer will not, deep down,
especially a computer device,
1076
00:59:40,428 --> 00:59:44,432
but transform
on a communication device.
1077
00:59:44,516 --> 00:59:48,019
And, with the Web,
This is finally happening.
1078
00:59:48,103 --> 00:59:50,355
Second, it's exciting
because it's not from Microsoft,
1079
00:59:50,438 --> 00:59:53,316
i.e.
There is tremendous innovation happening.
1080
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:58,280
I think the Web will influence
profoundly our society.
1081
00:59:58,405 --> 01:00:00,698
As you know, about 15% of goods
and US services
1082
01:00:00,782 --> 01:00:02,867
are sold through catalogs
or television.
1083
01:00:02,950 --> 01:00:05,912
All this and much more will go to the Web.
Billions of millions.
1084
01:00:05,995 --> 01:00:08,456
Soon, billions of dollars
in goods and services
1085
01:00:08,540 --> 01:00:09,957
will be sold on the Web.
1086
01:00:10,041 --> 01:00:11,918
One way to think about it
1087
01:00:12,001 --> 01:00:15,213
which is the distribution channel
direct to consumer par excellence.
1088
01:00:15,297 --> 01:00:18,007
Another way to think about it
is the smallest company in the world
1089
01:00:18,090 --> 01:00:20,593
may seem as big as the biggest
of the world, on the Web.
1090
01:00:23,305 --> 01:00:25,557
I think the Web...
1091
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,225
As we look back 10 years from now,
1092
01:00:27,309 --> 01:00:30,562
the Web will be the decisive technology,
1093
01:00:34,316 --> 01:00:37,444
the decisive social moment
for computing.
1094
01:00:38,195 --> 01:00:40,822
And I think it will be extremely important.
1095
01:00:40,988 --> 01:00:44,742
I think it did it all
a new generation of life
1096
01:00:44,826 --> 01:00:46,453
to personal computers.
1097
01:00:46,536 --> 01:00:48,580
And I think it will be extremely important.
1098
01:00:49,247 --> 01:00:50,332
Yes.
1099
01:00:50,540 --> 01:00:53,835
- And you're creating software that...
- Of course, just like everyone else.
1100
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:55,212
Forget about what we're doing.
1101
01:00:55,378 --> 01:01:01,676
Just as an industry, the Web
will open a new door for this industry.
1102
01:01:02,469 --> 01:01:06,473
And it's one of the things
which is obvious when it happens,
1103
01:01:06,556 --> 01:01:08,015
but five years ago,
who would have imagined?
1104
01:01:08,099 --> 01:01:09,809
Right.
1105
01:01:11,102 --> 01:01:12,645
Don't we live in a wonderful place?
1106
01:01:14,439 --> 01:01:18,318
I wanted to discover Steve's passion.
What moved you?
1107
01:01:18,401 --> 01:01:21,654
I read an article when I was very young,
in Scientific American,
1108
01:01:21,738 --> 01:01:25,825
which assessed the efficiency of locomotion
1109
01:01:25,908 --> 01:01:28,035
of various species on the planet.
1110
01:01:28,119 --> 01:01:33,208
In relation to bears, chimpanzees,
raccoons, birds and fish.
1111
01:01:33,375 --> 01:01:36,586
How many kilocalories per kilometer
spent when moving?
1112
01:01:36,711 --> 01:01:38,463
And they also evaluated humans.
1113
01:01:38,546 --> 01:01:42,675
And the condor won. It was the most effective.
1114
01:01:43,385 --> 01:01:46,137
And humanity, the jewel of creation,
1115
01:01:46,221 --> 01:01:49,974
had a very modest result,
placing in the lower third of the list.
1116
01:01:51,684 --> 01:01:57,482
But someone had the brilliance to evaluate
a human riding a bicycle.
1117
01:01:58,733 --> 01:02:01,444
He killed the condor.
It exploded with the scale.
1118
01:02:01,528 --> 01:02:04,697
And I remember
that this had an impact on me.
1119
01:02:04,781 --> 01:02:07,825
That marked me, the fact
of humans creating tools.
1120
01:02:07,909 --> 01:02:14,206
And we create tools that improve
our innate capabilities.
1121
01:02:14,957 --> 01:02:15,958
For me...
1122
01:02:16,042 --> 01:02:18,044
We had an ad
assim no in�cio da Apple.
1123
01:02:18,127 --> 01:02:20,880
The personal computer
it was the bicycle of the mind.
1124
01:02:20,963 --> 01:02:23,341
And I truly believe
1125
01:02:23,425 --> 01:02:25,968
that, of all human inventions,
1126
01:02:26,928 --> 01:02:31,974
the computer will be right on top,
if not in first place,
1127
01:02:32,058 --> 01:02:33,726
when we look back.
1128
01:02:34,686 --> 01:02:36,938
is the most
1129
01:02:38,606 --> 01:02:41,150
fantastic tool that we have already invented,
1130
01:02:41,233 --> 01:02:43,194
and I feel incredibly lucky
1131
01:02:43,278 --> 01:02:47,449
for being in the exact place,
in Silicon Valley,
1132
01:02:47,532 --> 01:02:50,535
at the exact historical time
1133
01:02:50,618 --> 01:02:54,622
in which this invention took shape.
1134
01:02:54,706 --> 01:02:57,041
And, as you know,
when you place a vector in space,
1135
01:02:57,124 --> 01:02:59,502
if you change your direction
a little at first,
1136
01:02:59,627 --> 01:03:02,129
It's drastic
when it enters a few kilometers into space.
1137
01:03:02,213 --> 01:03:05,383
I feel like we're still
at the beginning of this vector.
1138
01:03:05,467 --> 01:03:08,135
And if we can push it gently
in the right directions,
1139
01:03:08,219 --> 01:03:12,849
will become much better
As you progress.
1140
01:03:15,017 --> 01:03:17,103
I think we had that opportunity
sometimes,
1141
01:03:19,439 --> 01:03:22,317
which gives a lot of satisfaction
to everyone associated with it.
1142
01:03:22,484 --> 01:03:24,402
But how do you know which is the right direction?
1143
01:03:36,498 --> 01:03:39,041
Ultimately, it comes down to taste.
1144
01:03:39,792 --> 01:03:41,419
It comes down to taste.
1145
01:03:43,505 --> 01:03:48,593
It comes down to trying to expose ourselves
The best things humans have done
1146
01:03:49,511 --> 01:03:53,180
and try to bring these things
for what we are doing.
1147
01:03:53,348 --> 01:03:58,019
Picasso said, "Good artists copy.
The big ones steal.”
1148
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:03,691
And we were never ashamed
of stealing great ideas.
1149
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:09,781
I think part of what made it
the big Macintosh
1150
01:04:09,906 --> 01:04:11,658
was that the people who worked on it
1151
01:04:11,741 --> 01:04:18,456
They were musicians, poets, artists,
zoologists and historians,
1152
01:04:18,540 --> 01:04:22,043
who were also the best scientists
information technology in the world.
1153
01:04:22,126 --> 01:04:23,711
But if it weren't for computer science,
1154
01:04:23,795 --> 01:04:27,882
these people would have done
extraordinary things in other fields.
1155
01:04:28,007 --> 01:04:32,429
And they brought with them,
all of us brought to this project,
1156
01:04:33,596 --> 01:04:40,227
a very liberal artistic air,
1157
01:04:40,311 --> 01:04:44,441
a very liberal artistic attitude.
1158
01:04:44,524 --> 01:04:49,361
We want to bring the best
of the various other fields
1159
01:04:49,446 --> 01:04:50,988
for this field.
1160
01:04:51,072 --> 01:04:55,660
And I don't think we'll achieve that
if we are too narrow-minded.
1161
01:04:56,786 --> 01:04:59,997
One of the questions
What I did for everyone on this show was:
1162
01:05:00,081 --> 01:05:02,374
"Are you a hippie or a nerd?"
1163
01:05:04,001 --> 01:05:07,547
If I had to choose one,
I'm clearly a hippie.
1164
01:05:07,630 --> 01:05:09,256
- Yes.
- Yes.
1165
01:05:09,340 --> 01:05:10,675
In 30 seconds...
1166
01:05:10,758 --> 01:05:14,429
All the people I worked with
were also in this category.
1167
01:05:15,597 --> 01:05:16,764
- Really?
- Yes.
1168
01:05:17,974 --> 01:05:18,975
Yes.
1169
01:05:19,892 --> 01:05:20,935
Why?
1170
01:05:21,018 --> 01:05:24,814
Looking for hippies
Or are they attracted to you?
1171
01:05:24,897 --> 01:05:27,233
Ask yourself:
"What is a hippie?"
1172
01:05:29,276 --> 01:05:31,821
It's an old word,
which has many connotations,
1173
01:05:31,904 --> 01:05:33,865
But for me, because I grew up...
1174
01:05:33,948 --> 01:05:36,367
Do you remember the 60s
happened in the early 70s?
1175
01:05:36,451 --> 01:05:37,409
We have to remember that.
1176
01:05:37,494 --> 01:05:40,412
That's when I reached adulthood
and I saw a lot of this.
1177
01:05:42,414 --> 01:05:44,792
And a lot happened right in our backyard.
1178
01:05:49,255 --> 01:05:52,550
For me, what triggered this
1179
01:05:52,634 --> 01:05:56,638
there was something beyond
1180
01:05:57,639 --> 01:05:59,348
of what we see every day.
1181
01:05:59,431 --> 01:06:01,476
There is something in life...
1182
01:06:01,559 --> 01:06:06,939
In addition to a job, a family,
two cars in the garage, one career.
1183
01:06:07,023 --> 01:06:08,566
There is something more than that.
1184
01:06:08,650 --> 01:06:10,985
There is another side to the coin,
1185
01:06:12,153 --> 01:06:13,738
which we don't talk about much,
1186
01:06:13,821 --> 01:06:18,785
but that we experience when there are gaps,
when we're not...
1187
01:06:19,786 --> 01:06:21,913
When everything is not organized
and perfect,
1188
01:06:21,996 --> 01:06:23,247
when there is a gap,
1189
01:06:23,330 --> 01:06:26,250
we experience this peak
of anything.
1190
01:06:26,751 --> 01:06:29,170
And a lot of people mentioned it
throughout history,
1191
01:06:29,253 --> 01:06:30,963
We have to know what that is.
1192
01:06:31,047 --> 01:06:35,134
Whether it's Thoreau,
Indian mystics or any other person,
1193
01:06:35,217 --> 01:06:37,011
and the hippie movement
took some of that.
1194
01:06:37,094 --> 01:06:40,472
They wanted to know what it was
1195
01:06:40,557 --> 01:06:43,350
and that life was not just
what they saw their parents doing.
1196
01:06:43,475 --> 01:06:46,312
And the pendulum swung too much
to the other side, and it was crazy,
1197
01:06:46,395 --> 01:06:49,065
but it was the start of something.
1198
01:06:51,233 --> 01:06:57,031
It's the same thing that makes people
want to be poets and not bankers.
1199
01:07:00,910 --> 01:07:03,329
And I think that's wonderful.
1200
01:07:03,412 --> 01:07:08,459
I think this spirit
can be placed on products,
1201
01:07:08,626 --> 01:07:11,128
and that they can be manufactured
and given to people,
1202
01:07:11,212 --> 01:07:12,296
so that they feel this spirit.
1203
01:07:12,379 --> 01:07:15,592
If you talk to Macintosh users,
they adore him.
1204
01:07:15,717 --> 01:07:19,470
Not often
people love products.
1205
01:07:19,554 --> 01:07:20,555
Seriously.
1206
01:07:20,638 --> 01:07:22,599
But I could feel it there.
1207
01:07:22,682 --> 01:07:25,392
There was something wonderful there.
1208
01:07:28,896 --> 01:07:35,111
I don't think most
one of the best people I worked with
1209
01:07:35,194 --> 01:07:39,741
worked with computers
just to work with computers.
1210
01:07:39,824 --> 01:07:43,452
They worked with computers,
because they are the means
1211
01:07:43,745 --> 01:07:48,415
able to better transmit
1212
01:07:48,499 --> 01:07:54,005
the feeling we have and that we want
share with other people.
1213
01:07:54,589 --> 01:07:56,340
- Does it make sense to you?
- Yes.
1214
01:07:56,423 --> 01:07:58,635
And before they invented these things,
1215
01:07:58,718 --> 01:08:00,845
these people would have done other things.
1216
01:08:00,928 --> 01:08:03,555
But computers were invented
and they appeared.
1217
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:07,894
These people gained interest,
at school or before school,
1218
01:08:09,020 --> 01:08:13,733
and said, "This is the means through which
I can say something.”
1219
01:08:19,781 --> 01:08:23,367
In 1996, a year after this interview,
Steve Jobs sold NeXT to Apple.
1220
01:08:23,450 --> 01:08:25,286
Gained control over your former company
1221
01:08:25,369 --> 01:08:28,539
at a height
in which it was 90 days away from going bankrupt.
1222
01:08:28,623 --> 01:08:31,626
What followed was a recovery
unparalleled business in the USA.
1223
01:08:31,709 --> 01:08:34,586
With innovations like iMac, iPod, iTunes,
iPhone, iPad and Apple Stores,
1224
01:08:34,671 --> 01:08:39,258
Jobs transformed an almost bankrupt Apple
at the most valuable company in America.
1225
01:08:39,341 --> 01:08:42,219
As I said here,
grabbed the best and put it at your disposal
1226
01:08:42,303 --> 01:08:45,181
"so that everyone
grow up with better things."